i'm sure you all watched the republican you-tube debate on cnn. it was enlightening for me in several uncomfortable ways. i am still fiscally in favor of republican ideals of limiting beauracratic waste, but they are wrong on key issues.
the biggest disappointment of the night was mitt romney. his waffling and weak answers on torture and national security were unfortunate. his silly pandering to republicans about immigration is sad to see.
the star of this debate for me was john mccain. i have always liked the way he is willing to go against the republican party when he thinks it's the right thing to do. if the republicans nominate guliani or huckabee i'm not sure what i would do.
the two issues that continue to rise to the forefront for me are international policy plans, health care policy and fiscal responsibility...
oh, and ron paul came off unfortunately shrill and out-of-touch...not that some his thoughts aren't intriguing.
hunter was far too much a good 'ole boy up there as he waxed red-neck about his guns.
tancredo is a nut-job...
and fred thompson is a joke.
30 comments:
immigration: if an 'illegal' immigrant is working a steady job and contributing to society without contributing to crime then there is a place for that person in our society and our current draconian immigration laws aren't expediting the introduction of that needed and productive member of society into america.
a guest worker with citizenship status track seems to be a great option. allow the person to come over, prove themself legitimate and above board and welcome her in.
in the immortal words of jack white, "white americans, what? nothing better to do? why don't you kick yourself out? you're an immigrant to."
paul.
i agree with you on most points about the debate.
i would say this though. i thought huckabee won the debate. not knowing much about him other than the fact that he the religious right's superboy, i was pleasantly pleased with his demeanor and comments. if anything, i was more swayed to him about this debate.
rudi. retarded.
mccain. paul there's a danger in the words you used to describe him. those are the same things that people liked about bush in 2004. and look where that got us. not pandering is a good thing, but being so stubborn and paternalistic will def have negative consequences. and making outrageous claims like isolationism caused hitler to dominate jews and europe making you look a little looney.
mitt. too anxious to get words in. total little brother or small man's disease. that kind of over-eager behavior can look like you're trying to hard to be something, which unfortunately plays right into the "say anything to anyone for a vote" mitt that is often described.
i've said too much. i should heed my own counsel and be more brief.
i was disappointed with all of them, especially mitt. they are wrong on most every key issue. and their demeanor and attitude was embarrassing. if any of those types (with the exclusion, of course, of ron paul) then our descent deep into the international scene will be embarrassing.
Paul, it's strange that you don't rank our foreign policy as something that is most important? don't you think it might rank up there? ron paul or barack obama are the only two that can repair our international reputation, and thus do much to help the economy, etc.
'international policy plans' meant foreign policy. yes i think it's important.
obama's brand of uninformed, from the hip pandering is not what we need.
more enlightening than ryan lizza on obama is the article here...and i quote, "During debates he often starts with a bang only to end with a whimper. He is too fond of vaporous abstractions. He sometimes looks more like the junior professor he once was than a political heavyweight, and his policies are sometimes half-baked, as when he contemplated sending troops into Pakistan, a sovereign state, and a particularly fragile one, to kill or capture al-Qaeda chieftains."
Read this week's Newsweek cover article on Rudi if you get a chance. A really capable leader, but with lots of political and personal baggage.
I was disappointed in the debate. They tried to make it look like it was "from the people," but how do you sift 5000 responses without bias?
Too little about Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Arguing about illegals working in your garden? And where was Bush? Was he even mentioned?
romney definitely looked like he is struggling from small man syndrome and anderson cooper and cnn certainly took pain to take pointed swipes at him through the video clips they chose.
he is still the smartest man up there, but the other night he just looked a little too eager...reminding me of al gore's smugness when he would debate george bush.
mccain doesn't come across well in a lot of situations and sounds very cantakerous, but he has a proven record of willingness to compromise with the dems for real change.
the primary system in america with gerry-mandering of districts has been dangerous for america as it has served to polarize the two parties to far to the left and right. neither party sounds very intelligent right now.
the republican too belicose and the democraps too shrill. i can't wait for the general debates when each side is forced to reach for the moderate vote. this is where the money lies.
sure, the republicans in the cnn debate room were embarassing on many issues, but the democrats in their socialist pandering are every bit as offensive in their smug politically correct self-assuredness.
one funny commentary i recently heard is that america is run by BCRF. 'big corporations' and 'rich families'. the democrats are holding the middle class hostage and 'in their place' for politcal gain as they pontificate from their mansions about the common man. backing the ideals of the reverend al sharpton over bill cosby is all too indicative of the willingess to overlook the good of the people in favor of the sensational in search of votes...
i guess i too ought to stick to shorter comments..?.
dad r: your thoughts on the need for a dark horse right on. neither party is stepping up with a good choice. i'm hoping romney will look better in the general debates and really show his willingness to make the right decision based on the facts at hand...not for political gain.
to add to the 'democrats holding the middle class hostage' thing. the republicans are every bit as much to blame as the rich poor gap widens in america and corporations are not reigned in.
my point is just that 'democratic idealism' is every bit as politically driven as the the republican aisle. the democrats bow to unions and lawyers as they build the bureaucracy for america's aspiring bureaucrats...
No documentation here, but I heard that some of Hillary's strongest (deep pockets) contributers are the pharmaceutical companies, which would be a little ironic considering Hillarycare. Whoops. I forgot I am a Democrap.
Immigration is not what it used to be. When our "white american" ancestors came over to this country, there was no "system" in place that could be taken advantage of. If you came to America, it was understood that you would be making your own way and that the current population wouldn't be picking up the tab for any of your needs, no matter how desparate.
Not so today.
Why do the illegals come over the boarder today? Are they seeking what our ancestors sought, or something else?
matt.
having lived in a welfare community for two years and working with numerous (if not exclusively) medicaid patients at school, i am shocked at you what attribute to the "illegals," as you call them, for motives just to get a hand out. you cannot be serious. and while people do exploit the welfare system, that is by no means THE reason they come to the U.S.
from my experience, the reasons they come now are the same they came for over the hundreds of years of immigration.
1) chance at prosperity
2) family relations (meeting up with or preparing the way for)
i hope you were kidding about the comments you made. its hard for me to believe you believe that type of rhetoric.
Petey,
What rhetoric? I made no attributions nor did I intend to. I was asking a question for those that may know, which you did answered as far as you know. Who else knows any of these people and what their desires are?
I too have limited experience with illegal immigrants. I got to know a Chillean family quite well. They were a young couple with three children (one with mental challenges). They were good people who were initially drawn to the US with the promise of a good job in NYC. They came in legally with a 3 week visa to fill the position that promised good pay and a path to citizenship. They were decieved by someone whom I suppose was taking advantage of them and many promises went unfullfiled. Soon they had made next to nothing, and did not have the money to get back to Chile, and were still in the US illegaly. They were a draw on the system, as they had their three children here in the states, and worked jobs that did not document workers (hence no taxes paid) to get by, and yet I don't see it as their fault. They were decieved and eventually rounded up enough to purchase airfare for them and their children over the period of about six years.
I beleive that many come to America for the same reasons as our ancestors. I believe that some come for other reasons. Yet regardless of intentions, the influx of millions of illegal immigrants is a burden on the system that gets redistributed to you and me. I think it needs to be stopped and can be stopped, but I haven't heard an answer that satisfies me as to what should be done with those that are already here.
I don't consider the measures being suggested for making changes in this problem "draconian", but more unrealistic than anything. On principle I don't think that those that are here illegaly should have an easier pass to citizenship than those that are applying legally.
petey: interesting your force in answering as the dental profession is handsomely paid and is not forced by medicaid or medicare to treat.
i give free dental care in the ED nearly every shift.
our county hospital is full of people from mexico who were unhappy with their care in mexico and come for the free care from the hospital (the federal EMTALA law requires the ER to treat all comers with an emergency medical condition no questions asked--something i love about the specialty--many of those at county give fake addresses and phone numbers in order to receive free care)
matt lived in south america for two years and is much more intimately aware of their situation than you think petey...
your initial reaction is suprising.
It's a good thing we are all friends on this blog.
also, matt lives in new mexico--allowing him a look at south of the border style 'welfare community'. living in new york and spending a few hours in a dental clinic for a few indigent patients does not make one an expert on immigration and its effect on the american infrastructure. such 'rhetoric' is 'shocking' and makes me hope you are 'kidding'.
there is often no single reason for someone to immigrate to america. it would behoove us, however, to enroll those here very quickly and allow them onto a path to citizenship that also allows them to pay taxes and contribute to the amazing infrastructure we have here in america. nearly nowhere else in the world can you call '911' and have anyone to your house in under 15 minutes (let alone overtrained firefighters and emts in expensive engines and ambulances). this system is a beautiful thing, but you've got to pay into it if you want to take part.
you can't call any other business or professional sector of society 24/7 and demand a response within 15 minutes. it's not cheap and it's not sustainable under the current system...
if everyone in the country can pay $300 a pop for their phones and $70 a month for unlimited calling around the globe, then they can probably contribute to the health care system out of their own pockets (as was mandated in massachusetts).
and matt: what a sad story about your chilean friends. each story is unique...
for those of you hesitating to comment...come on in! the water's warm!
nothing wrong with a little exchange of ideas amongst family and friends..:)
I hear that Mitt will be addressing his "mormon problem" on Thursday, but I couldn't find any details on coverage...
For graduate school I did an internship working in the Deseret Industries in vocational rehabilitation. Much of my work was in interviewing, hiring, and setting goals with new DI employees. You may or may not know that anyone applying for a position at DI must have a referral from an LDS Bishop (they do not, however, need to be LDS). DI's main purpose is skills training and vocational assessment with the goal for outplacement in a permanent job placement.
Anyway. Many applicants were immigrants looking for work and skills training, as well as English teaching--all of which are provided at DI. Most of them were Hispanic. When I was trained, much time was spent teaching me about proper documentation--SS cards, green cards, visas, birth certificates--to legally hire someone. They told me all the "tricks" of illegal documents they see over and over--improper coloring, missing watermarks, etc.
My knowledge was put to good use and I came by numerous "illegal documents" while I was there. My heart would always sink when I came across a fake document. It was interesting to see the reactions of the applicants when I told them that their documents couldn't be used to work there. Some would hang their heads, say OK, and walk out of my office. Others would insist and would angrily throw a fit about the injustice of it all. What made me really sad were the people (often older ladies) who looked shocked, and had no idea their documents were fake. They would tell me a story about a friend or an uncle or a child who had helped them get their documents... not realizing they were not real. They would usually have no idea about the process of legal documentation or the process of citizenship, etc. and trusted those who had helped them come to America in the first place. My role was that of education and proper resource referral.
It helped me to realize that many of the problems stem from a lack of education or effective communication about the process. The whole process of proper documentation, with its elaborate timelines and paperwork, was hard for me to even remember/describe to them.
Then there is the issue of side "solutions" out there for immigrants--fake documents, under-the-table work, etc--that attempt to bypass the whole process.
There is much that can be done to make guidelines more clear, and to communicate them clearly and educate people effectively. Unfortunately there are people on all sides who do not hesitate to take advantage of the process. I'm sad that there are often innocent people caught in the middle.
Just a few random thoughts:
1. There are plenty of Americans taking advantage of the system, not just illegals.
2. We happen to know some illegal immigrants who came here for the sole purpose of providing nice things for their families. They're willing to pay taxes, put in good long hours of hard work and do their part to earn their keep. It's not fair to generalize all illegal immigrants, though I do see there is a problem.
3. Identity theft is a problem. I'm especially concerned because we are having some issues with Lucas' social security card. His name was spelled wrong initially and since then supposedly the new card has been resent 3 times, but we still have not received it. After many phone calls and trips to the SS office, we are still trying to get it resolved. A suggestion they gave us, regularly check his credit scores to make sure it hasn't been stolen. How lucky for us, we have to be concerned about this for the rest of his life? It is close to impossible to get a new SS#.
4. Steven's work spends thousands of dollars every year to bring up workers from Mexico on work visas. It's a lot of money to make it legal, but these workers have a much better work ethic than the local hired help. Maybe some of the Americans could learn a thing or two from the Mexicans.
5. A family of 3 does not need $600/month of food stamps to survive. Yet they can be alloted that much. That's taking advantage of the system...but somehow that's ok?
interesting how the discourse turns. going back to my original comment...i see that peter and i are probably in greater agreement than i allowed.
sorry if i allowed my concern for your tone get in the way of the actual facts.
amy, your stories are also very, very sad. we are doing too many hispanics a disservice and injustice in the extreme. i see so many kind, intelligent, hard-working and loving people that i really enjoy treating.
contrast this with jill's #5. some of the most belligerent patients i treat are receiving free care through disability or medicare for free, are life-long citizens and don't work anywhere near as hard as those in #2 that jill describes.
jill's #2 seems so important in this debate. i think this is why george w bush wanted to allow amnesty and why he backed the same bill mccain did in the senate...he grew up with these honest hard working families and knows that they deserve an expedited route to citizenship that will allow them to pay taxes and contribute. i've read accounts of non-citizens in utah that will pay taxes anyway to prove their commitment. what stops some of these people from this practice is that the IRS can use the tax information to track them and deport them (draconian? counterproductive? stupid? yes. yes. yes.)
the good people from countries the world over that are needed here should be given a back-ground check, a probation period on a work visa and allowed to come into the country in full citizenship.
what jill says is absolutely true. many of our own citizens could learn a great deal from immigrant regarding work ethic and ethos.
i hope i enjoy what romney says on thursday. i heard he will be speaking from the george bush library in texas.
Fact:
We just had a son. His older brother was born about two years earier. Our youngest cost us an order of magnitude (that means ten times) more than his older brother in hospital bills.
Two years.... ten times more.
Who am I subsidizing? I don't care if it is illegals or americans, it doesn't feel right to me. It effects us very directly. As a full taxpayer and being fully insured, I never expected this situation.
My thoughts...take them for what they are.
Amy's cousin (my sister-in-law) was hit while riding her bike by an illegal alien in a car when she was young. Luckily she was not hurt, but it incenses my husband to this day that the police could do nothing to him because he was not legal. They simply let him go...
My daughter attended a public elementary school in my southern california town. I have had VERY varied experiences there. Most of her kindergarten class was hispanic - and the teacher taught in spanish at least part of the time, even though she is not supposed to. I tried to take this as a plus because my daughter is smart, she was able to learn some spanish; but some of the other kids didn't fair as well because they were constantly confused and each lesson took twice as long to explain. Once in spanish, once in english.
Her 1st grade year she had a good class. Most of the kids in there knew english. The difference in the different hispanic kids was revealing. Some came to school clean, had parents who helped them learn at home, or atleast had parents who cared about their education. There were also kids in her class that went in to 1st grade barely able to recognize their ABC's. Their parents were unwilling to work with them at home, stating it was the school's job to teach them. These kids had such a hard time keeping up, that by February my daughter was complaining about being so bored at school she no longer wanted to go. When I talked with her teacher, she explained that she had several students that she had to work with to get them ready for the standardized tests, and she knew Kaile was fine, so she left her alone. My child was bored at school because she couldn't get taught. Unfortunately, the kids that were the lowest in Kaile's class at the end of the year also came to school filthy, and had the parents that were so unwilling to be involved in their child's education. (And don't tell me it was because they couldn't help them - EVERYTHING goes home in spanish as well as english.)
I know lots of wonderful hard working illegals. They are around us every day. Most of them are great workers, and really here in America for the "American Dream."
Probably my biggest personal beef is with the 2nd generation. In my opinion, they are the ones that tend to be the rabble rousers, the ones that drive through our parades flying their mexican flags and playing the mexican anthem. They are the ones that stoned our cars during their "walk out" from work and school. They are the ones that take for granted the life that America has given them.
haven't we already had this debate?
Matt, the change in $$ between your two children: I think the cost has much less to do with subsidizing illegals than it has to do with a corrupt medical system coupled with inflation. Example here: my own medications would cost over $1000/month (luckily only a couple of hundred because of insurance copays.) Val, because she had the opportunity and means to get a MS, has a job with full benefits, or I would now be digging into my retirement because I am not insurable. Lots don't have that option. If I didn't, I would probably be one of those making the trip to Canada for meds. I get awfully suspicious of the interactions between American pharm companies and insurance cos., hospital corporations and their lobbyists.
An overhaul of our system is needed badly. Please realize I am not so naive to think there are are also real problems with some of the more reasonable programs other civilized countries have.
I think it is really convenient right now to blame every problem our country has on immigrants. When I was a kid, problems were due to secret combinations of communists.
By the way, Paul, did I read that right? Bush has a library?
Do you think people are actually concerned about who get elected this year because it feels like for the first time in my lifetime that America hasn't felt like it is #1 in the world. For some reason I just don't feel like we are a dominating factor any more. Maybe that is the naivity of youth? I don't know that I actually feel comfortable electing anyone (which is a first - and a very uncomfortable position for me.) That doesn't mean I won't vote, it just seems like there are no real candidates that seem like they can fix everything that is wrong. Think we are just about hanging by a thread?
Paul,
Change that goofy avatar.
So what happened to Romney's anticipated "Kennedy speech?" I was planing on watching it on Thursday night, and Thursday AM they were already analyzing the speech. Did anyone here see it? All I could see was that they were saying Romney was announcing that he would not be controlled by the Mormon Church leaders because he is worried about Huckabee, a one-time Baptist minister, who is passing him in the Iowa polls.
amy and i were talking the other day about how issues that may not otherwise bother us take on a whole new meaning when it affects our kids.
the drug companies are certainly 'for profit' agencies that will stoop to the usual 'big corporation' lows to make a buck.
there's no denying, however, that nearly every big breakthrough in life-saving drugs in the last century has come out of the US.
i'm not sure what the answer is to either question...but i'm pretty sure that romney has thought more, and has greater intellectual faculty to solve these problems than either huckabee or obama...just a thought.
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